Random notes. Mostly about my work.
posted by Ari Jaaksi at 2:33 PM
Would it be possible for us to get a CHANGELOG? I'm sure many would appreciate, thanx. Cliff
Please don't take offense at this, but the changelog for this release is rather scant on details. Lots of users over at ITT are reporting tons of bugs and applications being broken by the new release. If I am going to spend a multi-hour process updating my device and restoring my data, it would be nice to know what I get for my troubles. It would be nice if in the future, changelogs were detailed and linked to bugzilla. It would be nice if in the future if Nokia switched from just releasing an embedded firmware image and switched to proper package management. I have a Ubuntu box which I have through three major new OS releases with just a few command lines. I have never needed to reinstall any of my applcations or user data through years of upgrading. Why should Maemo be any different?-Daniel Marsh
Would you mind starting to use convential three part version numbers. I am sure version 3.2007.10-7 means something to you but it is irritating and confusing to us. Why not 1.x.x for os2006 and 2.x.x for os 2007.Also, where is the changelog?
I'm really, really upset! I have a N800 since two months ago and yesterday it entered in a reboot loop. When booting the progress bar appears, then the Nokia logo, and then it boots again. This process repeats infinitely... Of course, I cannot update to the new software version because the machine never gets up!!! Any suggestion???
> Lots of users over at ITT are reporting tons of bugs and applications being broken by the new release.I tried to find such posts from ITT, but didn't. Could you please point out these posts?There was some "einstein" complaining about his device stability, but from his posts it was clear that he had installed to his device extra software that had made it unstable (e.g. oomwheather can in a day eat all the memory in the device).> If I am going to spend a multi-hour process updating my device and restoring my data, it would be nice to know what I get for my troubles.Why it would take hours? I think most of the time goes to downloading the image. Backuping up the device, flashing the new release and restoring the settings all take only a couple of minutes each?
AriThanks for the firmware update, but unfortunately Flash performance is still not acceptable as videos remain unwatchable. Media Player video performance is improved, but the limited codec support means the device is still incapable of playing many common formats without re-encoding - more codec (DivX/XviD etc) support is needed in future.Also, please focus on addressing the major flaws in the stock RSS New Reader and Email applications - these apps are so bad they're literally unusable, you may as well not bother shipping them (bugs have been logged in Bugzilla).Quality is still an issue - there are a number of bugs and problems being found in the new firmware. In future, an open or closed public Beta would be a good thing provided that testers are able to provide feedback prior to the final build (unlike the OS 2006 Beta).Finally, Bugzilla still needs more involvement from Nokia.
Jose - go to the Internet Tablet Talk (ITT) forum and search for "Reboot Loop"http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums
A native camera app. Thanks!!
It just keeps getting better. I love it.
I'm one of the users experiencing significant trouble with the new release. It won't work with my vpn client and gave me trouble connecting to the internet over DUN.Sigh... one step forward, two steps back.
Thanks for the update Ari.It has fixed the random reboot problem.Nice to hear you on TLLTS podcast too.
any updates on 770 OS to be expected?
Regarding the TLLTS podcast, Ari appeared in episode 181.Ogg and MP3 downloads of episode 181 available from http://www.tllts.org/
AriApologies for hijacking another N800 post, but can you respond to the question raised in this Maemo newsgroup post? Replying here or in the newsgroup is up to you. :)Judging from comments posted in the public Maemo Bugzilla by Nokia developers, there is no further 770/OS 2006 development - not even bug fixes - and this conflicts with your assertion that 770 firmware support will continue.Could you post a roadmap for the 770 and OS 2006 (even if it's just "more bugfixes, no new functionality"), and confirm there will be at least one more worthwhile firmware release for OS 2006 - the release earlier this year seemed to fix very few bugs and appeared to have any real value.Many thanks.
I also do wonder how a product can be fully supported if the fixing of the bugs has ended. I've found my 770 very useful - even though the stability of the browser could be better. I've been thinking of the update to the newer one, but I do reconsider it twice if Nokia abandons old hardware so quickly.
Great updates in the latest update, overall it seems to be much more stable, battery life for some reason seems to be a bit better as well and the camera app is a nice addition. I would like to know why the "Gmail Notifier" (mnotify) was removed from the Nokia Catalogue/Repository, the Links and all the info are still on the Tableteer page but it just results in a 404 error.
IIs Nokia supporting 770 anymore or not? It really starts to look like abandoned piece of hardware.
Dr Jaaksi - please respond to the question about ongoing 770 bug fixing.Nokia Developers are publicly stating that bugs raised against the 770 will not be fixed - this is in serious conflict with *YOUR PROMISE* that 770 support would continue. The current situation unfortunately makes your word appear somewhat worthless and if true will significantly undermine your credibility in future, both for current and future products.Please clear this mess up once and for all. Maybe the developers aren't on the same page but someone is killing 770 support. Not fixing long standing 770 bugs (particularly those in now shared 770/N800 applications) is beyond a joke, just fix them! And because the bugs raised against the 770 also happen to be bugs in the N800 you're shooting yourselves in the foot by refusing to fix them, surely you must see this (or hire smarter developers).Fundamentally, you made a statement of support for the 770 - please see it through. If not, anything you say or write in future won't hold water. :(
Milhouse, others,Thank you for you interest on 770. Please, read my earlier posts & blogs for all your questions. I have no news. We just-provided a new 770 sw update 2 months ago! -provided a new N800 upgrade a few days ago!-provided a high level roadmap stating some of the areas we are working on for N800. And our focus is clearly on N800!-There is a "hacker version" for 770 available that supports some of the features of OS2007. But as said earlier, we are not making a commercial OS2007 for 770.-770 is a supported Nokia product. We are selling it, we support it though our service centers same as any other Nokia product. -we prioritize bugs and make plans based on that. We are working hard trying to fix as many as possible. We do not refuse to fix them. And we concentrate on those fixes that has the biggest end user value. Supporting a product does not mean, unfortunately, that we can do everything that somebody wishes for.-I cannot tell you in detail what is the internal prioritization or what are we gonna do next in details. I also cannot go speculating what projects are ongoing or not within Nokia overall. -I really want to keep you informed about our plans and take your wishes into account -- like the previous 770 update and engineering release on OS2007.
Personally I think that 770 owners do not need commercial supported release of 2007. A hacker edition or the all the needed tools to make a hacker edition ourselves suits most of us fine. All we request is not to be left alone without any kind of updates and bugfixes either with our own build (Nokia could open more tools for true custom builds) or Nokia-made unsupported Hacker Edition. We feel like Nokia used us as a betatester for a platform - most our requested fixes will come to the new platform - those should be backported to the hacker edition if possible. Could we have even some kind of roadmap how long Nokia keeps making those hacker editions ?
AriI supported your shift of focus to the N800 provided that the 770 continued to receive bug fixes.Judging from the recent comments being left against 770 bugs in Bugzilla, Nokia don't plan on fixing any more 770 bugs. And now you say no new OS 2006 builds, and attempt to justify this by reminding us of the last OS 2006 build which offered NOTHING of any real value or significance!Bugzilla is full of long standing 770 bugs which have never been addressed - when did you really end 770 support, September 2006 when you went into overdrive on OS 2007? And then you just whipped up a last minute OS 2006 final build in November with a couple of WiFi bug fixes in order to keep the old customers happy? Because they really are that stupid and gullible?Quite honestly, your past comments of continued support have not been matched by your groups subsequent actions and this saddens me greatly, and demonstrates a certain lack of honesty on your part. A single minor firmware release for OS 2006 and no further bug fixes does not equate to "support" which is how I think most 770 owners percieved your comments. Judging by your actions, you've bailed on your loyal 770 owners - the only "support" you (Nokia) will be offering these customers is through Nokia Customer Service and only then, I'm sure, because you have legal obligations you cannot avoid since hardware warranties must be honoured. Software though, well that's a different matter isn't it?At least fix _some_ of the damned 770/OS2006 bugs - particularly as many of them are equally applicable in OS 2007. Some of these bugs are quite trivial, yet Nokia HAVE refused to fix them - read the newsgroup posting from my earlier comment which links to bugs with comments "WILL NOT FIX". And now also you admit there will be no further OS 2006 release - that's another admission of "WILL NOT FIX", at least for 770 owners.I hate to say this, but stop treating your customers with such utter contempt. You would be a fool to repeat the 770s sham offer of continued support with any successor to the N800 - you've been rumbled at the first hurdle.
It is a sad day today, when the lack of support for the 770 has become an official confirmed fact. Aside from declarations and press realeases, good intentions and free PR, IT has hit the fan. More to the point, IT 2006 OS is now a dead branch of development for the Nokia Internet Tablet team even if there are hundreds, may I say thousands of users asking for continued support. A good decision ? I doubt it ! Let's remember that CNET gave 770 a 6/10 score, while other respected reviewers predicted its early demise. It was the users, the Open Source afficionados that bought the product, used it, improved it and continually helped Nokia better their product. How are they now repayed ? By sayong "It's time to move on ! Forget the past and look into the future. And by the way, drop us another 400$ - this time we will get it right !".Not a good decision at all, especially considering that users are a fickle bunch - they change their minds easily and quickly.Developing a good product is hard - maintaining it is harder. But it doesn't matter how good your product is if users don't know and use it - and users always come where they are treated with respect and openess. Softening, covering or beautifying the truth is not an option, especially with early - adopters - if the 770 will not be maintained, then let's say it. If money for development is scarce, then lets embrace open source and offer the OS as a public developement branch. Let us not lie about support, intentions and dedication towards achiveing a goal with the present or the next product. Sometimes you don't get free shots.
I am very disappointed by Quim Gill's recent announcement on the Maemo Developer's list that there would be no future bugfixes forthcoming for the Nokia 770, in direct contrevention of what we have been lead to believe by you. This is frankly unacceptable given the number of significant bugs remaining on the 770 and the fact that the 770 is still being actively sold in stores today. I will no longer recommend the 770/N800 to my customers if this is the level of support they can expect.-Daniel Marsh
Apple and Microsoft provide better OS software support than Nokia! Why is that? Maybe it is because this is the first computer product from a phone company, so you are learning as you go.If the IT products were subsidized like cellphones and cost $99 USD, then users probably wouldn't mind upgrading every time a new device came out. $400 USD is a LOT of money to shell out every time. Maybe the IT lineup will go the way of the N-Gage product line.
Fixing the most severe (not necessarily the most voted) bugs on the 770 will go a long way toward restoring faith in the community. Not doing so will alienate people who are still undecided about purchasing an N800 for fear it will soon be abandoned.It's already happening. Read *recent* Internet Tablettalk posts.Perception = Reality. This should be the operating mantra. Open, honest, effective communications are key toward maintaining solid relations with the customer base-- and so do robust reverse logistics and upgrade systems/processes.Nokia cannot afford to screw this up-- but it's on the bubble now.This shouldn't be political, although it probably is. The decision for AT LEAST one more maintenance release for the 770, fixing the most critical bugs, should be void of such a stain.It's just good business sense.
Use community to develop a new type of product. Let them make applications free of charge. Let buyers do the testing and finding bugs for you. Lure the best bunch of the developers to put their effort to a new release, assuring that it has a chance for success. Leave old customers behind with a buggy software, wondering what happened. A trully nice way of doing business.
This is the edge .... if you now leave loyal 770 users alone with the buggy OS, the reputation is lost forever and it may be impossible to get it back - it will surely hurt sales of later internet tablets.
Never underestimate the advertisment power through referral. I have a 770 and everyone around me asks about it. I tell them that 770 is a great device and advice them DO NOT buy it Nokia (or N800) since they will be treated as alpha testers and the software support will be dropped within just a few months. That they will be better of buying another device with similar capabilities.
The future of computing is in handheld devices. We used to use mainframes, then desktops and now laptops are outselling them all. The first to provide a genuinely useful device that can be with the user all the time will have success on the scale of the iPod. I predict it will be Apple. Nokia doesn't seem to have the right stuff. Don't piss off your users, it will come back to haunt you.
Thanks for the update. I appreciate the hard work you have put into this device and the software. As an owner of both the 770 and n800, I'm baffled by the amount of whining here and in ITT. It's almost not even worth reading anymore. Both devices have been great toys and have found many uses on the road and at home. Sure not everything works perfectly but at least it is getting better. I believe in open source apps. I've seen linux evolve from twm to beryl. Unfortunately most people have no patience and want immediate satisfaction. I look forward to seeing how this platform grows! Thanks again.
> To all the people who bought an> N770, you bought a first generation> device. It's going to have some bugs> that will never get fixed. I bought> a second generation device--it's a> great device, but it has some bugs> and the third generation will be> much better. That's how it always> works, and that's fine. When the> N900 comes out, support for the N800> will be less than it currently is.I notice you did not say "I bought a second generation device, and some bugs will never be fixed". Well that's the difference isn't it? You bought a product which may or may not receive continued support this time next year, but 770 owners were dumped after 12 months. When you are in the same position let's see if you're still so positive.> Now that Vista is out, support for> Windows 98 is dead, support for 2000> is close to dead, and support for XP> is dying. What did you expect?Huh? These are 7 and 9 year old operating systems which only recently stopped receiving support. XP is 4 or 5 years old and the latest version - SP2 - will receive full support for another year or two at least. Hardly valid comparisons with a modern day operating system such as that in the 770, yet which is no longer supported after only 12 months since first release!To give you a taste of how 770 owners feel, how would you like it if SDHC is never (officially) supported by the N800 but is supported officially by the N900? Trivial bugs/fixes such as this are what Nokia are now refusing to fix in the 770. Not fixing these issues is a slap in the face and not everyone can afford to buy another $400 device simply to get the fixes they should have received in their current sub-year old device.Cutting off the most basic support so soon and with such little notice is simply not acceptable and only casts Nokia in a very poor light as a disreputable company that cannot be depended upon.Nokia need to change their "mobile phone" mentality when it comes to Internet Tablets - these "pocket computers" are unsubsidised and complicated devices which require longer term support, certainly much longer than 12 months.If there is no change to this current support mentality, certainly with regard to the N800 (though doing something more for the 770 would be a "very good thing" and may reclaim some credibility) then Nokia should stick to building phones and forget all about Internet Tablets - the epitaph would read "It was a nice idea, but ineptly managed."
At this point I'm pretty much beyond caring that IT is a dead-end platform in which devices are unceremoniously dumped after a year. What I'd still like to have is a few more months of some use out of my 770, until I figure what else I want in its place. Palm has had a clue about product support before -- perhaps the new Treo line will be good.Unfortunately, I made the mistake of testing the "hacker edition" on it. Now it a) crashes couple of times a day b) just lost all my feed subscriptions and c) won't start the web browser any longer. Not much of an Internet device.What I'd like to know is whether the hacker ed will be updated with the new N800 OS release, or whether I should just feed this junker to the birds.Nokia, redeem yourselves. Make the 770 a usable device, and some owners might be inclined to give you some repeat business, too.
The hacker edition is unfinished and occasional crashes are to be expected (although it's quite stable here) however "b) just lost all my feed subscriptions" is a known problem (it's in Bugzilla) with the N800 version of the RSS app. The RSS app is appaling and should be rewritten ASAP, it's as bad as the email app (ie. utterly useless). So bad there's little point shipping them with the devices.Nokia need to focus on improving software quality across the board - the standard apps distributed with the Internet Tablets are generally of extremely poor quality and only Opera stand out as being usable which isn't surprising, but even Opera has faults which could/should be resolved if only Nokia would choose an open source browser. The games are good quality, however they're not realy the reason people buy the Internet Tablet.
I just got back from Frys in the USA where the 770 is still proudly displayed for sale. But judging from this thread the device is not only obsolete but unsupported. What the F*** are you thinking Nokia?????You are well aware that these devices will be attractive to a large community which has both the desire and the ability to fix bugs in the platform for you.For goodness sake can't you understand that all you have to do is open source the 770 code and your own customers will fix the bugs for you.It is a simple and zero cost solution that will fix your current PR disaster, solve the problem of supporting obsolete products and endear you to your customers.What on earth do you stand to lose?
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N800 is not a smartphone right?It is still a symbian phone?regards,Clyde Bane of E_cell
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