Some learning to do?
...related to the article found here.
The journalist emphasized things his way -- things that he saw important. Fair enough. My points are:
Companies like Nokia need to learn the open source way of working. This means not only fulfilling the letter of GPL, LGPL etc. but also the spirit. In my mind this means integrating the corporate work with the open source community, participating, contributing back the code, building the code in open projects and not only releasing it when mandatory, not forking, etc. Open source is a very effective way to create software together with others; together with other individuals and other companies. This is something that the corporate must learn to really benefit from open source.
The open source community should also be willing to learn. I think it would benefit everybody if people developing open source code would understand WHY certain things are made the way they are. Maybe there are other reasons than stupidity and an evil mind? Trying to understand and learn would benefit both open source projects and corporate to come up with better solutions. As an example, a subsidized business model has it challenges in the context of truly open devices. Understanding why, what to do about it, etc, would benefit us all.
Then, somebody told me that the open source community do not need to listen or learn from the corporate. They do not work for you, somebody said. But actually, many of them do. Let me explain:
The most relevant open source projects have an increasing number of corporate developers. Companies like Nokia, Red Hat, Novel, IBM, Opened Hand, Imendio, Trolltech, HP, and so forth develop code in projects such as Linux, GStreamer, Mozilla, KDE, GNOME etc .. For these companies, open source is not a hobby but serious business. It is a way to get software developed in an open collaborative manner -- to meet their business goals. So if a company pays (as a salary, as a contract to a hacker company or some other way) for the development, then I claim that the developer works for the company. Even if the development happens in an open source project.
We participate in open source projects with individuals, but also with companies like listed above. I think it benefits everybody to understand the constraints, motivations, and limitations each individual, corporate or project may have.
I'm not a teacher, I'm a learner.
The journalist emphasized things his way -- things that he saw important. Fair enough. My points are:
Companies like Nokia need to learn the open source way of working. This means not only fulfilling the letter of GPL, LGPL etc. but also the spirit. In my mind this means integrating the corporate work with the open source community, participating, contributing back the code, building the code in open projects and not only releasing it when mandatory, not forking, etc. Open source is a very effective way to create software together with others; together with other individuals and other companies. This is something that the corporate must learn to really benefit from open source.
The open source community should also be willing to learn. I think it would benefit everybody if people developing open source code would understand WHY certain things are made the way they are. Maybe there are other reasons than stupidity and an evil mind? Trying to understand and learn would benefit both open source projects and corporate to come up with better solutions. As an example, a subsidized business model has it challenges in the context of truly open devices. Understanding why, what to do about it, etc, would benefit us all.
Then, somebody told me that the open source community do not need to listen or learn from the corporate. They do not work for you, somebody said. But actually, many of them do. Let me explain:
The most relevant open source projects have an increasing number of corporate developers. Companies like Nokia, Red Hat, Novel, IBM, Opened Hand, Imendio, Trolltech, HP, and so forth develop code in projects such as Linux, GStreamer, Mozilla, KDE, GNOME etc .. For these companies, open source is not a hobby but serious business. It is a way to get software developed in an open collaborative manner -- to meet their business goals. So if a company pays (as a salary, as a contract to a hacker company or some other way) for the development, then I claim that the developer works for the company. Even if the development happens in an open source project.
We participate in open source projects with individuals, but also with companies like listed above. I think it benefits everybody to understand the constraints, motivations, and limitations each individual, corporate or project may have.
I'm not a teacher, I'm a learner.
posted by Ari Jaaksi at 8:27 AM
89 Comments:
I was going to buy an N95 as Nokia was more "open" than Apple, but screw that, I'll get an iphone, seing you're all about DRM and SIM Locks anyways.
Yes, unlike Apple... :)
from Bruce Perens blog post http://technocrat.net/d/2008/6/11/43198 :
[...]
The key is knowing how to draw bright lines between different parts of the system. That's a legal term, and in this case it means a line between the Free Software and the rest of the system, that is "bright" in that the two pieces are very well separated, and there is no dispute that one could be a derivative work of the other, or infringes on the other in any way. All of the Free Software goes on one side of that line, and all of the lock-down stuff on the other side.
And so we can have what I call a bright-line system. That's a system that is designed, from the start, to separate those two pieces. In a properly engineered bright-line system, you can replace every byte of the Free Software, and yet the DRM keeps working as it should, the SIM locking continues to lock, and the GSM stack, which is the precious "intellectual property" of most cellular companies, is still hidden away where nobody can see it. Many of my consulting customers are building these systems into their products today.
[...]
please read the Bruce post for a good analysis of the problem and a fully legal solution acceptable by the community.
I'm hoping you were misquoted in the article, otherwise, you're gonna lose support for your software, your devices and your company. Unfortunately, you can't eat your cake and have it too. Either everyone "plays by the rules" or no one will. People that care about this stuff - developers, Open Source advocates, etc. - will vote with their wallets. Open Moko and Android want you to fail so that they can succeed. The question is will you help them in their quest to overtake your market share?
"I think it would benefit everybody if people developing open source code would understand WHY certain things are made the way they are. Maybe there are other reasons than stupidity and an evil mind?"
Is a sociopathic desire for profit at the expense of everything else, including all principle and the needs of others, evil?
"As an example, a subsidized business model has it challenges in the context of truly open devices. Understanding why, what to do about it, etc, would benefit us all."
This is stupid: obviously, it is the subsidized business model that is broken!
Here's the bottom line: the Free Software community will not conform the mobile industry, when doing so would require completely scrapping all the principles that Free Software stands for. Instead, we demand that the mobile industry change to conform with us!
That quote came off as a declaration of war -- a clear threat. I am very saddened by this, I really like the Qt framework.
Sadly this explanation show you aren't getting it. I looks like you're a bright guy but a slow learner.
I also agree with Bruce that sim locks have nothing to do with the opensource model. It's merely part of the business model of the operators. And it needs some support from the devices. Same with DRM, just replace operator with publisher.
Aris blogpost really underlines the fact that companies need to participate actively in the development, not by dropping legally mandatory code bombs two days prior to launch.
You guys are hilarious! Ari is making Linux & Gnome based internet tablets, he is collaborating with Mozilla, GTK, etc. And now he wants have a dialogue on openness and mobile phones with you.
And you say it is a declaration of war.
I don't get it!
I think Big Business has things to learn from open source...
big-business-needs-to-learn-open-source
"Maybe there are other reasons than stupidity and an evil mind?"
What are those other reasons? In your view, what pushes a company to the absolute requirement to use DRM?
To legally distribute say movies and videos? It is up to meadi companies to decide. Nokia has been pushing no DRM, actually!
At the moment all the collaboration with the free software world going on, is to be in compliance with the (L)GPL.
It really seems to be that all those upstream collaborations are just the only plausible solution to reduce integration work and NOT to advocate an open development.
That is a fundamental difference. It is solely an opportunistic way of get things done.
Drifting away from GTK happened before OS07 and it became obvious that alignment is necessary to reduce long term costs - that's basically the simple equation that always matters in a corporate context.
On the other hand, nearly all of the (Nokia made) userland on the tablet is closed. For reasons of "differentiation".
I think this is quite pathetic considering that many parts are trivial and the question seems to be from whom Nokia tries to "differ". The Atom devices? Nokia differs by their great hardware not but some statusbar applets or the application launcher.
So Nokia should *really* make clear where it stands.
And here we go again with things already said, there is no place for DRM and Sim-Lock in a free software world, as it is about *freedom* and *choice* both are non-existant in some vendor based locking.
And time has shown that DRM is actually a bad solution, the big four are beginning to see this. Sim-Lock on the other hand is something providers want to subsidize the hardware. And here it is clear again that even if this will never align with the free software philosophy it can be integrated in lower-level system parts - that might increase costs a little bit but on the other hand allows easier interaction with the community.
"What are those other reasons? In your view, what pushes a company to the absolute requirement to use DRM?"
If I were in charge at Nokia, I'd consider DRM for the tablets so that consumers can legally and easily purchase and download recent TV-shows and popular music to the device. (Which, btw, is one of the features missing most.)
I say this as someone who personally doesn't even use non-DRMed MP3 but insists on OGG Vorbis instead. But Ari can't just not offer DRM because he personally doesn't like it. He has to find ways to get content to the customers, somehow. It seems this is only possible with DRM at the moment. - But that's exactly what Ari says: learn why they use DRM and then maybe try to reach the same goal without it. Wouldn't it be nice to find a way to get the content consumers want to the tablets *without* DRM? Sure! But try to come up with a solution, don't just say "*I* don't want DRM, so *you* mustn't use it either."
Wouldn't it be nice to find a way to get the content consumers want to the tablets *without* DRM? Sure! But try to come up with a solution, don't just say "*I* don't want DRM, so *you* mustn't use it either."
"What if they gave a war, and nobody came?"
We open source developers understand you and your position quite well. And we're asking the simple question: what economic justification is there for Nokia's existence? Why should we put up with Nokia's proprietary software and Nokia's attempts to tie us to proprietary services when we can put open source software on generic hardware, and when we don't want our phone software to be biased towards any particular on-line provider?
The only reason I still use a Nokia phone is the same reason I used to use Windows machines: it's the main choice I have when walking into a store. And just like Windows, I don't like the choice I'm given.
As soon as someone gives me an alternative, I will use one. In fact, I may well switch to the iPhone because, although it's as proprietary as the Nokia, at least it has a better user interface.
When reading some of the comments here I extremely dislike some people that feel part of "Open Source" that I have also been part of for several years now.
A company has to care about its market and gaining profit. Now Ari tries to carefully open Nokia, but if you give a finger some "Open Source people" seem to want to take the whole hand instead. You cannot change everything from one day to another, keep that in mind. Thanks.
My response is here:
http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/06/13/learning-how-to-communicate/
I think you're right, everyone has some learning to do --- including learning how to communicate better with each other.
Step 1. Buy TrollTech, thus making yourself (nominally) an "open source company"
Step 2. Frame serious, anti-competitive technical/legal barriers-to-entry to the market (and barriers to creating new markets) as "touchy, emotional issues".
Step 3. Label critics of these barriers as "idealists"; Claim you're taking the "pragmatic" approach. (cf. classic anti-GPL rhetoric)
Step 4. Profit!
Look, if you don't want to play by the rules of the OSS community, nobody is forcing you to. DRM and Sim locking are only tolerated by the general public because of A - general ignorance or B - there is no other choice.
The OSS community knows better, and they choose to deny their services to people trying to advance these causes at the expense of the general public.
The GPL v 3 goes to amazing lengths to stipulate this as well.
Any attempts to hold QT hostage will result in a truly open fork which pushes the proprietary version into obscurity or an outright shift to a replacement.
DRM and Simlocking are ubiquitously used to prop up business models which have no right to exist. If your business requires it it's time to re-evaluate it. Nobody is forcing nokia to even stay in the mobile market, they can shift to manufacturing foam packing peanuts if they don't like having to compete for their position.
I think the community is fine with that. What we're not fine with is asking the community to (indirectly) support subsidies and DRM. That doesn't mean Nokia can't do it... of course they're welcome to the same table as everyone else, and they are now being asked to follow the same community rules.
"So if a company pays (as a salary, as a contract to a hacker company or some other way) for the development, then I claim that the developer works for the company."
What the company is paying for is influence, nothing more. Now in cases where the company owns a particular brand it does have a say, but only as long as the developer cares about committing code to that particular "brand".
The influence they are paying for has many limits to it, so it is not a carte blanche check to do whatever. The developer holds with them the right to fork and go in a different direction (or just leave and have someone else pay their salary).
As far as DRM goes, no one is telling Nokia that it has to use open source. It can do its development in any manner it wants too.
I've had fairly good interactions with Nokia, so I am surprised at the lack of table manners that it had in this particular case.
Live and learn :)
-Brian
talked about this here : http://zerias.blogspot.com/2008/06/qt-cannot-be-closed-stop-throwing-fud.html
"And now he wants have a dialogue on openness and mobile phones with you."
Open source isn't about talking - it's about *doing*. It's not about saying "I'm open, I'm open!" while keeping stuff proprietary. It's also not about stating the need "to educate open-source developers" about "IPR" when the whole open source phenomenon is rooted in strong copyright provisions. Instead of treating open source developers like people running a "warez" site, dropping "hobby" and "hobbyist" into every article and interview about the open source community, how about showing some respect for what that community knows for a change, rather than continue with the idiotic "business knows best" whining? And given that a lot of open source developers are wise to the anti-consumer measures and business models of the different telecoms companies (vendors and operators) and know which rights such companies occasionally seek to take away, it should be obvious that no-one is going to be impressed by whining about how some business is run like it's a law of nature.
"And you say it is a declaration of war. I don't get it!"
No, you don't!
And once again I ask Dr Jaaksi where the patent pledge has got to - not the worthless one that Nokia's lawyers did to flatter the more easily impressed Linux developers a few years back after lobbying for software patents, but the one that indicates that Nokia really does get open source and isn't a predator amongst the people it wants to write its software.
But then none of Nokia's representatives seem to be capable of even discussing the things that they're supposed to be lecturing everyone else on. Once again, guess who needs the lecture!
FOAD Nokia, FOAD
Nokia doesn't realise that the open source community does need them. At all.
If Nokia were to suddenly stop using open source, FOSS would continue without so much as a hiccup. On the other hand, Nokia would then have to either develop their own proprietary software or purchase it from another company.
Here's the deal. If Nokia wants to use open source software, they are welcome to. If they don't like how something works, they are welcome to modify code to their liking and use that. If open source developers tell you that something is against their ideals, you are in NO place to argue so just shut up and be grateful for what you do have.
In fact, OSS is about all Nokia has going for it. Hardware-wise you don't offer anything special. If you go proprietary, then you lose the only edge you have. If I had a choice between a Nokia, a Motorola, an Apple, a Samsung or a Helio and all of them were using proprietary software, guess what? I wouldn't choose the Nokia.
It sounds like Nokia just wants free software and free labour to make them richer. We don't care about your revenues and we don't care if your company dies tomorrow. There are plenty of others out there and plenty of new ones that will appear in the coming years.
Table manners?
Jaaksi cannot say his opinion but you can? And you can be rude while Jaaksi never was?
Table manners?
This is Jaaksi's blog where this discussion happens. Like going to his home and shouting?
hello Ari
people want content like video and music on phones.
does it require DRM?
apple sells music without drm and so does amazon, magnatune and others.
drm is not a requirement for selling phones.
its a bad habit.
not all "open source" are that strict-
ubuntu has the multiverse and restricted and debian has the non free
but people can choose to use them or not to.
if its nvidia video driver or divx, or the opera browser- its on option.
but its not forced and people can choose not to use them.
i think that is a good compremise.
phones should assist in communication
and as such should not block/hinder it in any way but allow it to be versatile, open and free.
at least that is how i see it.
"Now Ari tries to carefully open Nokia, but if you give a finger some 'Open Source people' seem to want to take the whole hand instead."
I don't want to touch any of Nokia's appendages. I want cheap, powerful phones running the software I want, connecting to the servers I use, and playing the media I have. Whether companies deliver that with open source or proprietary software, I don't care. But Nokia isn't delivering it at all, and Ari is saying that Nokia will continue not delivering it, only they will now do so with open source.
Nokia's problem isn't open source vs. proprietary, it's that instead of manufacturing, good, cheap, programmable hardware, they are aspiring to being some kind of media and social network company.
I can belive it, Microsoft buys Nokia....!!!!!
It's quite sad to read about public statements like this again. It is high time Nokia realizes what they need to stay ahead of the competition. The main things are the brand name and low production costs per device. Playing the imaginary property game is harmful to both of these. Digital restrictions management is defective by design, it simply cannot work. It does a pretty good
job at pissing of end users though.
Well, the cat is certainly amongst the pigeons, isn't it?
As an N800 user, I have ripped my own DVDs to play on the tablet, and it's not hard to do. I see it as fair use, and I do not violate copyright by letting other people take a copy.
On the whole I am against DRM, but not in a blind rage way. I have no problem with the creators of the original works wishing to earn a living from their work, and so in theory DRM might be acceptable.
*IF* a media file were protected or water-marked using a published *standards* based algorithm (that was open source or licensed indefinitely at a reasonable price), then that the file could be played on ANY suitable device. The file and any playback decryption keys MUST also be archivable for safe keeping too. It must be impossible for the media publishers to arbitrarily revoke any keys.
This means that instead of relying on secret hardware relying on security through obscurity, the media files are encrypted or water-marked with a person's individual key before they receive it, thus giving them the incentive to protect the file!
HOWEVER, most DRM I've encountered fails on pretty much all the above conditions: e.g. the playback software is proprietary and closed source and cannot be licensed (think itunes fairplay, BBC iplayer, eReader electronic books), the media file cannot be copied from device to device, the DRM scheme can be abandoned locking you out of data which you paid for, etc.
So, and to cut a long rambling story short, I am extremely suspicious of and will not buy DRM'd material until a scheme is devised that people cleverer than myself (Bruce Perens for example) can analyse and declare to be safe and fair.
Oh, the problem with Nokia and DRM is not the media companies alone. Nokia is actually actively pushing DRM as a solution (to what? Keep users locked to Nokia phones?) even if the media companies would've agreed to distribute without DRM.
> If Nokia were to suddenly stop using open source, FOSS would continue without so much as a hiccup.
Nokia Open Source contributions have had an impact at least on OLPC, OpenMoko and Gnome desktop. I think you would miss those contributions.
A bit oldish list of contributions is here:
http://opensource.nokia.com/contributions.html
I wrote a post relating to some stuff going on between nokia/maemo/developers a couple days ago, it is again a communications issue:
http://www.ringworld.org/~dieman/blog/archives/2008/06/developer_dropp.html
I realize many are posting emotionally instead of rationally, but I ask that those doing so cool off a bit and think this through rationally.
Nokia isn't pushing DRM. That's the domain of media publishers. In fact business would be much easier for Nokia if there was no restrictive DRM (in so many varieties) attached to popular media. It's a royal pain for any device manufacturer who doesn't stand to directly benefit from any DRM scheme.
And I find it interesting that the ONE major mobile communications device manufacturer that publicly addresses this subject is taking such heat as it methodically moves toward increased openness. Where is your ire for the others that show no such interest? Is it all or nothing with you? How unrealistic!
Then there are those who sniff and declare they will buy Apple's even MORE closed products because they "at least have a better UI". Where are your lofty principles now? Do you not recogize the disingenuity and hypocricy of such a stance?
I am stunned by the general thoughtless (over)reaction to Ari's communications. Just stunned.
Otherwise I don't really have a major problem with Ari's comments, but hints of embracing DRM are somewhat depressing now that at least the music industry is taking steps towards being less DRM-crazy. The movie industry is still having illusions of DRM effectiveness, but perhaps Nokia might be a large enough player to have some weight in steering the companies towards a more DRM-relaxed future?
(Not having DRM would have a very apparent benefit for Nokia; less complexity -> less things to go wrong -> less effort needed, plus the more positive public image in the minds of more geeky users)
Dear Informer, I felt that as I've been involved in the FOSS community one way or another for over a decade, I'd like to address a couple of your points.
"Nokia isn't pushing DRM. That's the domain of media publishers. In fact business would be much easier for Nokia if there was no restrictive DRM (in so many varieties) attached to popular media. It's a royal pain for any device manufacturer who doesn't stand to directly benefit from any DRM scheme."
It's also relatively easy to set up a solution to go around DRM, especially when looking at customers in a principally windows based environment. Simple create a simple GUI wrapper for ffmpeg and libvorbis & co, and you've got an easy way to convert almost anything on the planet for use with the device in question. You're A) Promoting the use of FOSS, B) Not needing any DRM as the customer already owns the content.
Since there's many services that have non-DRM content available, this lets the customer make their own choices.
However, then you can't stream any live events. However, in this increasingly data-bartering based system we're creating, how much demand is there for live content, excluding things like NFL and baseball, on a cell phone?
"And I find it interesting that the ONE major mobile communications device manufacturer that publicly addresses this subject is taking such heat as it methodically moves toward increased openness. Where is your ire for the others that show no such interest? Is it all or nothing with you? How unrealistic!"
You have to understand that there is a great deal of history here; companies promising FOSS support and open drivers for months, only to release a buggy, incomplete, and non-working source tarball to the development community with half the files containing NDA boilerplates.
Or change the license of the new version of a driver from GPL3 to a proprietary IP license, apologizing almost a YEAR LATER and returning it to GPLv3, and then lobbying with C&D orders to have most content resulting from said fiasco removed.
Nokia says "Open!" We've heard that before. It's a bit of a fact of human nature, in my opinion, that you can only get burned so many times before you start to react to /Any/ company saying "Open!" with disbelief.
In reference, here's an article on the instances that crossed the line with me, especially with a fairly sizable investment into Via hardware based on their original claims of "Open!". Read here - http://www.linux.com/feature/54151
"I am stunned by the general thoughtless (over)reaction to Ari's communications. Just stunned."
We've been stunned for years over major companies saying "We're going to do this!" and what we get is about as far from it as you can get - And yet, we have no say in the matter. We can't, ultimately, bring much of any weight to bear on a company, simply because of the fact that the "economics" of FOSS and the "economics" of big business are so far apart that it's like trying to call an apple, an orange.
Any large business that says "Open!" any more is usually going to get this kind of response from the FOSS community in general, especially if they immediantly say things like "DRM!" DRM is ethically anathema to FOSS. Sim-locking is an irritation to me - My phone will work with any sim card. I very carefully chose a phone that could be made to do so.
Yet I'm still with the company I bought the phone from. Because A) They unlocked the phone completely before handing it to me, B) Fully disclosed all consequences of breaking contract, C) Revealed information on how to make my phone function with multiple carriers at one time. In a word, they provided "Open!" functionality - My phone, it does what I want, when I want, how I tell it - Which is my primary requirement in any device I own.
Now, I'm going to append my war cry:
Mr. Jaaksi, if you're actually serious, you damn well better prove the nay-sayers wrong. Disbelief from the FOSS community-at-large melts in the face of evidence.
I've only seen one company seriously buckle down and work with the FOSS community - and that's AMD/ATI, because they gave us what we needed.
However, because of their past treatment of the FOSS community, many people are skeptical, and will be until the FOSS AMD/ATI drivers are complete. We listen to functionality.
If you're curious, you can always keep abreast of a lot of that kind of information at phoronix.com
I respect that you're saying "Open!", Mr. Jaaksi. Don't quit.
Dudes, just 'cause Apple doesn't understand fair SIM locking, it doesn't mean SIM locking in general is unfair. I for myself consider the typical SIM locking a quite fair deal: You aggree to use a certain mobile provider for two years, and get for your money quite reasonable amounts of free minutes and a device of quite the same worth as the or accumulated monthly fees. What's wrong with that? Do you guys really expect to get the hardware for free?
If you wanted to fulfill the "spirit" of the GPL you would call it "Free Software" instead of "Open Source".
taschenorakel: "I for myself consider the typical SIM locking a quite fair deal: You aggree to use a certain mobile provider for two years, and get for your money quite reasonable amounts of free minutes and a device of quite the same worth as the or accumulated monthly fees. What's wrong with that? Do you guys really expect to get the hardware for free?"
Come back with a proper argument when you can distinguish between signing a contract and having hardware locked to a single provider. It may help if you were made aware that unlocking phones (a legally stipulated right in some countries) does not let you out of fulfilling the terms of a contract, but it does let you choose another provider.
Most informed people know that a subsidised phone only appears cheap or free because the customer has to pay service fees for a minimum period as defined in a contract, and in some countries this minimum "total" amount has to be advertised along with the "pretend" cost of the phone. I imagine that most of the respondents here know all this and therefore object to SIM-locking as an unnecessary measure of additional control enjoyed by aggressive operators and their friends.
But then SIM-locking and DRM has always been about pushing the envelope of control to unacceptable and distasteful limits under the guise of "protecting investments" or "safeguarding intellectual property". So what if someone unlocks their phone? The piece of paper with their signature on it means that you can invoice them for the remainder of the 24 months (or whatever) - you don't need a piece of intrusive technology to regulate that whatsoever.
so anonymous, your position is that it's okay to blame Nokia for the sins of others? That's how it seems to come across.
Rather silly, isn't that?
I have a better suggestion to those so eager to vilify Nokia: instead of slinging arrows, try a more rational discourse. The OSS extremists are the ones making this a "war", not Nokia's grossly misinterpreted actions and pronouncements.
I also want to add that many of you misconstrue the whole "SIM locking" issue.
Do you honestly believe Nokia wants its phones locked to providers? Do you really think that benefits Nokia, a company that would love to get its phones into the hands of as many customers as possible, unconstrained by lengthy contracts and carrier restrictions?
All Ari is saying is that such constraints are reality, and as Nokia increasingly embraces OSS, two very disparate worlds are going to collide more and more. If OSS developers want to FULLY engage in this complex but promising opportunity, then they need to learn the "rules of the road".
And along those lines, here's what many of you are completely misisng in your rush to judgment: OSS developers who come to understand the business constraints are better equipped to challenge them. Here's an analogy: I invest in oil stocks because on one hand I believe I am entitled to a share of the obscene profits being made... but even more importantly, since I am in the belly of the beast, I have shares I can vote to try to effect change. Who stands to shift paradigms better, the guy working for change from the inside, or the one shouting epithets across the internet?
Think about it.
You want to fulfill the spirit and letter of the GPL, yet you want Free Software that allows Treacherous Computing for devices marketed to the general public.
This is impossible. The GNU GPLv3 is even explicitely designed to avoid that. Period.
The solution for you is simple; do as Bruce Perens said in http://technocrat.net/d/2008/6/11/43198
As for Free Software developers to understand your business model based on Treacherous Computing, we do. It IS evil. But at least if you do as Bruce told you, you will be able to use Free Software for the non-evil parts of your devices.
This is not an ideal situation, but here is the way we can interact in a pacified context.
the informer: "The OSS extremists are the ones making this a "war", not Nokia's grossly misinterpreted actions and pronouncements."
Well, it helps to make statements that won't be misinterpreted - a basic rule that you'd think people in those roles would know all about. Telling your audience that they need educating is another rule of basic PR broken, especially as many in the audience are fully aware of the facts in the matters under discussion.
"Who stands to shift paradigms better, the guy working for change from the inside, or the one shouting epithets across the internet?"
Sounds like something straight out of an Exxon Mobil commercial.
"Do you honestly believe Nokia wants its phones locked to providers? Do you really think that benefits Nokia, a company that would love to get its phones into the hands of as many customers as possible, unconstrained by lengthy contracts and carrier restrictions?"
Of course Nokia enjoys having their phones sim-locked, because a locked phone is more likely to be thrown away and then a new phone will be bought! If you can easily take your (perfectly good) old phone to a new carrier, you're much less likely to be needing a new phone.
Nokia's general lack of software updates serves the same sick purpose.
You say,
"Then, somebody told me that the open source community do not need to listen or learn from the corporate."
Perhaps you weren't listening closely. What we said was "this community does not need to change the GPL to accommodate corporate needs - especially when defending our code against corporate greed".
To clarify, if you don't intend to follow the letter of GPL, the answer is quite simple. Don't use GPL software at all. No compromises, no problem - just do your own code and leave the GLP'd code alone.
one anonymous guy said: "Well, it helps to make statements that won't be misinterpreted - a basic rule that you'd think people in those roles would know all about"
I's impossible to do so. No such thing as a statement that can't be misconstrued by those with extreme bias (as evidenced by the naysayers), especially (as it has been here) when context is so gleefully discarded. Looks to me like some hardcore zealots were just waiting for the next place to grind their axes.
he continued: "Sounds like something straight out of an Exxon Mobil commercial"
Bullshit. No oil company would utter such blasphemy. What I said about changing corporations from the inside (such as voting your principles via shares of stock) is anathema to them. You speak too glibly, and bereft of experience it appears.
infinite added: "Of course Nokia enjoys having their phones sim-locked, because a locked phone is more likely to be thrown away and then a new phone will be bought! "
More bullshit. Nokia sells unlocked phones all over the world, including the US. That is their preferred mode, as anyone who has followed their misfire in the US the past few years is well aware. Unlocked phones loaded with features-- exactly what carriers hate but Nokia gladly sells. So throttle your cynicism there, bud-- it's severely misguided.
And your remark about software updates has no bearing on the subject.
Hey Nokia. Try making 2 versions of the same phone. One with drm/simlock ect. and one without. See which sells the best.
On the subject of changing company culture, the informer once wrote, "Who stands to shift paradigms better, the guy working for change from the inside, or the one shouting epithets across the internet?"
To which an anonymous person responded that this would be worthy of an Exxon Mobile commercial.
"Bullshit. No oil company would utter such blasphemy."
Well I guess you haven't seen the commercial where they say that mankind needs "oil, gas, coal, nuclear...". It must really grate to have to mention nuclear when your core business is peddling oil and gas. Oil companies like to show how they are agents of change - I'd question just how effective they are in that role.
"What I said about changing corporations from the inside (such as voting your principles via shares of stock) is anathema to them. You speak too glibly, and bereft of experience it appears."
Unless you hold a large amount of stock or can rally a very large number of other small shareholders, prepare to be overlooked. Customers, governments and regulators are generally much more effective at forcing companies to change. So unless I'm talking to Warren Buffett here, I think you can save us the lecture.
Ignore the lecture if it pains you, anonymous. I do happen to hold sizeable stakes in some companies, and most of the stakes I hold are only increasing. That is, after all, the idea behind investing. Plow dividends back into more stock and at a certain point it really pays off.
But more on topic, I'm speaking of principle, something it seems the rabid naysayers here do grasp... if a bit tenuously. ; )
As for your persistence in the oil company argument, I'll join the cynical crowd for a second. You seem to assume they are sincere in those ads. I don't buy it. And it's funny to me to see the misguided slams at Nokia by the FOSS zealots, because they lack perspective. You want a true "evil empire"? Look no further than your prior example.
There are things to learn from both sides, but also reasons to show that you understand.
Nokia - the corporation - is totally opposed to having Theora the universal codec for HTML 5 - and there can be no technical nor legal reasons. I don't count wild speculation as if something might happen as a valid reason.
It also doesn't do Ogg in its own media player on the tablets!. There is an add-on which partially addresses it, but this should work "out of the box".
Apparently it is too much to expect Nokia to support open standards. They hate them and will do what they can to interfere with their adoption.
And what else do I need to learn?
If you really need DRM, or something proprietary (like Skype), then add it in such a way that I don't have to use it if I don't want to.
I'm not prepared to say all locks are wrong - I don't want someone cloning my cell phone and running up a bill, and wireless internet still isn't free. The art - and where the niches where money will be made - is in balancing the open and closed part.
If you attempt to cripple or close an open part (Tivo) it is as much stealing as breaking a DRM system. You might be able to do it legally with a lot of effort but shouldn't. You shouldn't be doing such things, and for the most part aren't, but don't seem responsive or sensitive to the issue.
Open Platform, where Nokia can put some proprietary or closed applications, as can anyone else place - open or closed applications.
the informer: "As for your persistence in the oil company argument, I'll join the cynical crowd for a second. You seem to assume they are sincere in those ads. I don't buy it."
Actually I don't really buy what they're saying either. And that's precisely the reason why one has to distinguish between actions and words. "But why?" you may ask, "Can't we trust Exxon Mobil on this one?" (Since much the same question has been raised on behalf of Nokia.) Answer that question and you've just put yourself in the position of a critic of Nokia.
We've seen Nokia's actions in the past - a commitment to act differently has to go beyond someone insisting that "things have changed" before saying "but I can't go into specifics".
So you think that you have the right to re-define "open" just because you pay somebody to code. That does not mean you can change or ignore the license terms.
If you don't like the license, don't use the code. If you want "open", then quit whining about how it conflicts with your DRM. If you want proprietary *features*, then write your own, proprietary, code. That's pretty simple, why can't you learn it?
I would submit that the reason Open Source exists is that the person who started it found out very well (and the hard way) how the Closed Source world works.
I would submit that the reason Open Source exists is that the person who started it found out very well (and the hard way) how the Closed Source world works.
anonymous said: "Actually I don't really buy what they're saying either. And that's precisely the reason why one has to distinguish between actions and words. "But why?" you may ask, "Can't we trust Exxon Mobil on this one?" (Since much the same question has been raised on behalf of Nokia.) Answer that question and you've just put yourself in the position of a critic of Nokia."
I had a feeling you'd reply along those lines, but it ignores critical context. exxon Mobile has a history (Exxon Valdez just one glaring example) that far surpasses anything Nokia has done that could be construed as evil. Nokia has a much, MUCH better record on just about any aspect of business when compared to many. Even yearly peer and customer surveys bear that out (Nokia is one of the most admired global brands for one).
And there's one little element that no matter how hard you guys try you can't just wave away completely: the very existence AND CONTINUED OPENING of the internet tablets. They are more than words. They are not the pure Holy Grail the extremists demand BUT they go farther toward their goals than 95% of devices in the same or similar ecosystem. That's profound.
And what has Exxon done for you lately other than announce they are getting out of the gasoline resale business? ; )
tz declared crazily: "Apparently it is too much to expect Nokia to support open standards. They hate them and will do what they can to interfere with their adoption."
Pure unwarranted hyperbole. That comment above is one very clear reason why so much of the complaining is seen as sheer unsubstantiated ranting.
You know the lingo really well.
Your second paragraph was sheer poetry.
But I still dont trust you.
Too many Carmony's and other used car salesmen with slick geek talk before you.
I work on GPLed programs because I want to. Too many suits start telling me why and how to things that have nothing to do with coding and I tune out.
You'll learn that soon enough when your actions alienate those that dont work for you.
Many you'd rather call us
Non-Compensated Individual Hobbyist Developers ?
Will I use my own time to code on some project that Nokia 'owns' or others by Open Moko and Android?
Right now, Nokia is #3 in that race.
As what so well said earlier on:
'Here's the bottom line: the Free Software community will not conform the mobile industry, when doing so would require completely scrapping all the principles that Free Software stands for.'
And most of us in the community arent stupid, we dont have to 'learn' anything to know WHY Nokia sabotaged the two Ogg formats from being accepted. We know why it did it, its just that we dont agree or support Nokia's reasons/excuses.
Large companies have departments full of creative people who can whip up brilliant press releases which could convince even people to sell their mothers.
I know why Apple does the things it does, I dont need an explanation in corporate culture like im a college freshman.
Actions>words.
You want to know how Nokia is perceived? Ask the people I work with and those I collaborate with what they thought about the Trolltech sale...
Show me that you get it in words and in practice.
Until then Ill just be here in the corner holding my breath until that happens. Or unless Duke Nukem Forever comes out first.
YOU may not need the explanation of corporate culture, but it is very clear that others do.
Along those lines, comparing Nokia directly with Android and OpenMoko is a bit silly at this point. It makes more sense to compare them against Sony-Ericsson... LG... Samsung... Motorola... and yes, Apple more and more. In that light, Nokia far outshines the competition in the realm of openness. I don't see much credit for that amongst all the ranting.
And I won't defend Nokia completely. Some business decisions I find extremely irritating and nonsensical, especially where North America is concerned. I just think that on THIS topic, people are responding in ways ignorant of and disprportionate to the issue. Too much paranoia, too little benefit-of-the-doubt.
the informer: "I had a feeling you'd reply along those lines, but it ignores critical context. exxon Mobile has a history (Exxon Valdez just one glaring example) that far surpasses anything Nokia has done that could be construed as evil."
Sure, but consider the "I'm changing things from the inside" message (together with the fashionable oil company adverts - not just by Exxon) and contrast this with the history of such businesses, Nokia included. That's where the skepticism comes from. Nokia may not take a cavalier attitude to the natural environment (as far as I know), but they've taken a cavalier attitude to the welfare of software developers in the legislative environment.
Later on...
"Along those lines, comparing Nokia directly with Android and OpenMoko is a bit silly at this point."
This assumes that Nokia is part of the solution, that the telecoms business will eventually change and that Nokia must still be central after such change has taken place, but that's by no means a natural law. It assumes that the current players can (and even should) elbow others out in order to pitch their solutions at their own chosen tempo, like various oil companies saying that they are best placed to deal with climate change "...but in the meantime how about some petroleum?" Insert the usual corporate apologies such as "we may be part of the problem, but we are also part of the solution", although the first part rarely gets said - see "Super Size Me" for a notable exception with predictable consequences for the spokesman concerned.
Anyway, this is all about the message and not the substance. It should be clear that the message is of lesser value than the actions (some admittedly being positive, although most of Nokia's products aren't open, contrary to the impression you'd like to give), the policies and the intent. We all know the history and suspect the intentions, so where is the patent pledge? Where's the commitment to oppose software patents?
And no, this stuff isn't irrelevant. We don't just look at the last utterance by a Nokia representative and forget everything which came before. If Nokia wants to diminish negative perceptions, it has to put away the smoke and mirrors and stop trying to market its way out of the situation - something which its representatives appear to struggle with, anyway.
Owned! Learn the facts before preaching, father.
Nokia should understand that they are now talkin Free Software, not Open Source.
If Nokia wants success, it should allow forkin the Maemo and other it's OS's and Software platforms.
Nokia should sell own version of those in phone but not to decline users to install other versions.
World is already very twisted because of ISP and Phone manufacture companies. They want to put DRM to everything because they are afraid they loose everything if they dont lock in customers. They just are forcing customers to obey what they sell or they dont get it anymore.
This is typical thing what happends when stock corporations gets power, they dont anymore sell services to customers, they think that customers are serving them.
Same thing goes to Nokia, it has not listen the community or it's customers who are it's biggest market, instead it listens those who has money and other competitors so they develope phones what no one actually need.
Everytime you leave something important away from phone to add it later for next model and sell it for better price, okay, this is normal way to profit but Nokia should understand how to do good business, but it can not do it because it's stock company what #1 rule is to get more money to it's stock holders, not for good products for customers and keepeing them happy.
Same thing goes to this Free Software things, Nokia tries to control everything what they get, because Nokia is afraid, it's so afraid competition and that customers are happy for product what they buy. Nokia has came too big company and it will go down as Rome. Same kind things will happend for Microsoft and other big companies, if they dont play nice with customers and understand that they can not rule what customers want to do with their phones.
I hope that Nokia would remove DRM ideas from their phones, forget SIM locks and just give open phone for customers. Then force ISP's and other companies to sell _services_. But this is the hardest part, every company is afraid that they loose money, they dont get enought profit so they just try to force and lock-in everyone. What leads to bad publicity and customers are leaving, if there is better service near.
We should learn? From Nokia? Huh? Are you kidding? It is Nokia who should learn from customers since it is WE ARE, the customers, who pays money for all this stuff, after all. And we should learn that we should be restricted FOR OUR OWN MONEYS? Do you really believe all your customers are such complete idiots?
And well, let's take a look. GSM and 3G were designed to provide freedom of choice. In places of world where GSM deployed as first mobile standard, this works: you can buy (non-locked) phone and then you can choose any subscription you're like. Therefore everyone is happy and fair competition takes place. For both cell operators and phones manufacturers.
Now what we can see in USA\EU? Crippled and defective business models which are eliminating freedom of choice and looking doubtful from antitrust point of view. For your own moneys you getting so much needed and requested features as sim-locks, DRM and other restrictive stuff. Can you imagine how I'm happy to buy bunch of RESTRICTIONS for my moneys? And instead of trying to improve user experience Nokia tells "nope, no freedom, instead you have to learn now to be a good slaves for your cell operator". I'm personally happy to have sim locks and DRM in my device not more than to have knife in my a$$ or bullet in my heart.
Looks like Nokia did not learned Google's "don't be evil" principle and rather willing to turn into EVIL company who tries to enslave customers, or at least to enslave their minds with all this dumb stuff and f...k our brains with DRM, sim locks and "we have decided than you can not" principles. Huh. And after all you want us to work with you in open manner? How smart. You've forgot that programmers are more smart than average Joe. You can try to fool average Joe by not mentioning sim locks and DRM in front page of model's description or even declare it as "feature". However this is not going to work with more smart people. So, good luck in futile attempts to trick opensource programmers. That's surely a hard thing to do.
Exposing Nokia to open source was like taking a monkey to see Shakespeare.
Stop responding to "the informer". Having a Nokia PR person spending this much time responding to blog entries is going to push up the price of the phones! lol
"I think it would benefit everybody if people developing open source code would understand WHY certain things are made the way they are. Maybe there are other reasons than stupidity and an evil mind?"
Of course no one thought, what stupid or evil things can we do. The thought was much closer to "how can we wring every last dollar out of these suckers... oops, I mean customers"
Like most corporations, Nokia suffers from "multiple personality disorder". There are those (especially some engineers) who would like the work they have done shine free worldwide, and then there are some upper management and marketing people who would love to offer absolutely nothing and charge a fortune... if only they could get away with it.
As for Ari Jaaksi, I guess he should move to marketing. FOSS is the goose that lays the golden egg, stop getting so stinking greedy or you will loose everything.
How many times have you done a large speach when you did nothing but espouse the virtues of FOSS and perfusely thank the developers who gave you this great gift?
Zero is what I guess, cuz I cannot find reference to it anywhere.
One speech would be but a pittance of thanks for a body of work that would cost hundreds of millions to multiple billions to replace.
IMHO It seems that the problem is not so much about FOSS itself, or FOSS vs. corporate, but the suitability of (F)OSS to devices and telecoms business.
Biggest clash is between what developers see as fair from some other branch of experience (or a wish that could be, like "no DRM one day" -- that would be grand for me too) and what is expected in telecoms devices business.
The context -- any context -- sets many constraints and priorities that rule over products and projects and the reasoning and dependencies is not always clear to individual developers. This causes misunderstandings. SO maybe it works out best by everybody learning - Nokia telling about devices business and also continuously learning about FOSS realities.
As you can see, world tends to choose open technologies.And open competition.So what is future and what is past definitely clear.And it is clear which business models will prevail.Surely those which are not tricking their customers and are not imposing lock-ins.
You can see, almost everyone hates Microsoft and most MS customers alienated to the point they will be happy to use "anything but Microsoft". Why? Simple!
MS does not produced products fulfilling customer needs for a while but rather produced crap intended to squeeze more moneys and lock-in customers.So, there is quite few customers who likes all this and only MS monopoly is what allows this scenario.Once monopoly gone, MS is clearly doomed.They're already received a good slap on browser market.They're getting same on office market.They will have same situation on OS market.There will be hard times for MS in future.
Now what about Nokia? Will it stick to defective business models from the past? They're clearly have no future. However they're producing a bunch of customers who will like "anything but Nokia" (because "Nokia produces evil handsets with evil features and ignores our needs rather sticking to their needs").
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